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January 23, 2011

Trinkets, Procs and Math, Oh My!

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Written by: Vixsin
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Of all of the things that players have a love-hate relationship with in the game (LFG, farming, dailies, etc.) I would venture a guess that trinkets rank right up there on everyone’s list. When you don’t have them, you find them enticing and frustratingly elusive, and when you do have them you’re burdened with figuring out whether or not you’ve managed to snag the right ones. And guaranteed, if you hit up any forum board to ask for advice, you will find a multitude of conflicting opinions regarding even the simplest of comparisons. But fear not fellow healers, I think I can help.

In contrast to expansions past, we healing classes have a multitude of trinkets, with a variety of stats and procs, to work with as we enter into and work our way through T11 content. And while this might be delightful for the collectors out there (EPIX! GIMME GIMME GIMME), for those players like me who just want to focus their efforts on a couple, mentally comparing values just doesn’t cut it. So, as much as I’d love to say that this post was borne out of a sheer desire to be helpful to others, to be frank, it was the result of pure necessity. And in light of the 4.0.6 changes to Mana Tide, the field has broadened in the search for that Best In Slot piece.

So, in order to better evaluate each potential option, I did what I normally do when confronted with a data set—I made a comparison spreadsheet! (Thankfully, this one isn’t as complex as ones past.) This time I decided to keep it simple and to the point and answer that burning question we all have—what trinkets will work best for me?

The Field of Contenders

Trinkets Static Value Proc
Type
Proc
Core of Ripeness 321 Int U +1926 Spirit / 20 sec
Fall of Mortality 321 Int R +1926 Spirit / 15 sec
Fall of Mortality (H) 363 Int R +1926 Spirit / 15 sec
Jar of Ancient Remedies U +515 Spirit for 90 sec + 6420 mana
Jar of Ancient Remedies (H) U +580 Spirit for 90 sec + 7260 mana
Darkmoon Card: Tsunami 321 Int C +400 Spirit
Vibrant Alchemist Stone 351 Int C +194 constant haste / 40% to potions
Lifebound Alchemist Stone 85.2 Spirit, 127.8 Mastery U 40% to potion
Mandala of Stirring Patterns 321 Spirit R +1926 Mastery / 10 Sec
Mandala of Stirring Patterns 321 Spirit R +1926 Intellect / 10sec
Tyrande’s Favorite Doll 321 Int U 4200 mana / 1 min
Blood of Isiset 285 Mastery R +1710 Spirit / 20 sec
Corrupted Egg Sgell U +475mp5 / shell dur + 5700 mana
Figurine – Dream Owl 285 Int U +1425 Spirit / 20 Sec
Gale of Shadows 285 Haste C 340 spellpower
Rainsong 285 Spirit R +1710 haste / 15 Sec
Sea Star 285 Spirit U +1425 Spellpower / 20sec
Tear of Blood 285 Int R +1710 Spirit / 15 sec
Witching Hourglass 285 Int R +1710 haste / 15 Sec

U = On-use, R = Random-proc, C = Constant gain

Evaluating Trinket Procs

One of the most fun and also the most confusing things about trinkets are their procs, oftentimes because those procs are accompanied by a whole host of definitions and constraints. But there are a couple good rules that you can apply to level the playing field, the first of which is determining the average applied effect of any proc. This average effect can be expressed as:

Average Effect = (Proc gain x seconds of application) / CD

Using this formula we can determine that:

Core of Ripeness Average  = (1926 Spirit x 20 sec) / 120 sec = 321 Spirit

Jar of Ancient Remedies = (515 Spirit x 90 sec) / 120 sec = 386 Spirit

Now it’s important to remember that the values you get from this calculation are averages; the actual performance of a trinket will vary depending on the duration of the fight and either your number of casts per second (in the case of random-proc trinkets) or your rigorous use of trinkets on CD (in the case of on-use trinkets). But, since we’re evaluating all trinkets along this same average metric, we’re at least comparing like to like. So, now that we have an average effect for each trinket, we need to make sure that effect is being represented in the correct stat format. In the case of everything but spirit and Mana, there are no additional calculations to be performed.

When it comes to determining the value of +Spirit or +Mana procs, the easiest way to compare apples to apples is to reduce those procs to their value in Mana per 5 seconds (Mp5). To convert a flat mana gain into mp5, you use a very simple equation

Mp5 = (Proc / CD in seconds) x 5

Naturally, this calculation assumes that as soon as your trinket comes off CD, you will use it immediately. (I’ve found it helpful, if there’s no benefit to timing your trinket usage, to just macro in /use 13 or /use 14 into your most-used spell. Since trying to activate a trinket won’t use a GCD, you can use the macro in lieu of your spellbind and see no adverse effects. Then when the trinket does come off CD, you’ll automatically use it.)

When it comes to translating a +Spirit proc into mp5, the calculation is a bit more complex, and is based on your Intellect value at the time of the proc:

Mp5 = (0.016725 x SQRT(IntellectTot) x SpiritProc) x 0.5

The total from this calculation represents your in-combat mana gain per point of Spirit, with “0.5” being the amount of our out-of-combat regen granted to use through the Resto Meditation bonus. (It’s worth noting that this calculation also applies to static +Spirit trinket bonuses, like Mandala of Stirring Patterns. If you’re not a shaman, then this multiplier will vary based on your own class bonuses.)

Ultimately, in reducing trinkets to their base value gains, you can, like I did, establish values which allow you to easily compare the advantages and disadvantages of any trinket out there.

The Winners

With stat weights in flux and the discussion of Mastery’s benefits still raging on, it’s difficult to say at this point who the ultimate winners of the BiS Resto Trinket competition are. But, in playing around with stat weights on my own spreadsheet, it was clear to see that there were some trinkets that consistently performed well against their counterparts (remember that true mp5 values will vary based on uptime and fight duration):

  • Fall of Mortaility (Heroic) – 363 Int/SP + ~262 Mp5
  • Fall of Mortality (Normal) – 321 Int/SP + ~266 Mp5
  • Tyrande’s Favorite Doll – 321 Int/SP + ~378 Mp5
  • Darkmoon Card: Tsunami – 321 Int/SP + ~271 Mp5

But, there were also some dark horses in the pack which might be poised to displace some of the above trinkets:

  • Mandala of Stirring Patterns – 321 Spirit (220 Mp5) + ~385 Int. Depending on what Blizzard sets the + Int proc as, this could be poised to be the new trinket of choice because not only will its baseline spirit give an additional oomph to your MT, but the +Int proc when aligned with MT, could net you some additional mana as well (provided that the regen calculation doesn’t become fixed on your base Int value during MT’s duration). The one big detractor for this trinket is that if the proc comes at an inopportune time, the additional boost is completely moot.
  • Vibrant Alchemist Stone – 351 Int/SP + 194 haste + ~150mp5. A great epic trinket for the price, while this stone won’t beat out the heroic Int + regen trinkets, it is on par with other epic-level trinkets.
  • Theralion’s Mirror (Heroic) – 363 Int/SP + ~363 Mastery (bear in mind that this proc can be entirely wasted because it is random, but its best-case scenario for throughput is pretty strong). I actually wrote this and then realized the Mirror could only be activated by harmful spells. Reading comprehension FTL.

If you’d like to explore some comparisons for yourself, maybe finally see some proof that Jar of Ancient Remedies is *not* a viable throughput trinket, feel free to download the spreadsheet or use this GoogleDocs version, to play around with your own values.

And lastly, there’s one trinket that looks a little less polished these days: Core of Ripeness (321 Int/SP + ~223 Mp5). With its +Spirit proc no longer affecting Mana Tide, I’m afraid the Valor point trinket’s glow has lost its luster. It seems a bit unfair that this trinket will be dropping off so significantly in value because of the 4.0.6 change, although if there’s anything to take solace in, it’s the fact that your BiS options consist of either dragging you raid team to Cho’gall, dropping 20-30k gold on a trinket which will last just one tier, or farming Archeology until you turn into a Bronzebeard. So maybe, all things considered, our beloved CoR will still hold a place as an easily-obtained, solid raiding option, for players who might not have oodles of free time and the best luck with RNG. Or in other words, players like me. ^_^






58 Comments


 
 

  1. Eso

    Hey,

    Good summary of trinkets, and yes I arrived at the same conclusions with my spread sheeting endeavors. However I have been afraid to “brag” about it because I was afraid that I might have skewed the numbers ( accidentally ;) ) in favor of DMC: Tsunami & Tyrande’s as I already invested a lot of time in getting these.

    Very glad to hear you have the same results!

    *One trinket you missed is the “Shard of Woe” an AMAZING trinket sort of like ulduar 10 style one. Reduce the mana cost of spells by 405 and provide a haste use effect. Assuming you cast at least two spells per five seconds (very conservative estimate) you would save 810 mana, mana saved = mana gained imo?

    **Sinestra is obviously out of most players reach right now, but still worth considering.

    Cheers,
    ~Eso


    • Yar, I deliberately omitted the HM only trinket for a couple reasons: first, as a HM only trinket, I don’t think it’s attainable for many players. Granted, this is slightly hypocritical of me since one of the other ones I mention comes from HM Cho’gall and I guess you could argue is just as attainable. Secondarily, I’m not convinced that the lack of throughput (namely, Int) is worth the gain in mana. The trinket would perform much better in the hands of a class that’s very close or at the GCD on most of their spells, instead of shaman, who would at best get in 3 casts per 5 seconds. Lastly, I’ve been seeing the trend as FH goes in and clears out the remaining normal mode encounters, that our overhealing is increasing. Meaning the mana “gained” from Shard of Woe might not actually be mana needed.


      • Eso

        Valid points, as you touch on I will be letting the druids and priests take this one first.

        In my mind – I could reforge a significant amount of spirit away in favor of throughput stats with this trinket. Only problem with this is our 4.0.6 status as “spirit stacking mana battery” for the raid :S

        Still a very interesting trinket imo.


  2. Voltigeuse

    i just got my Core of Ripeness last night and I am very happy with the returns. While this will pale as a regen trinket in the next patch I think that I will still look to keep it because Int is our major throughput stat.


  3. Commenter

    I know it’s a bit more work, but could you please start adding a wowhead link or mouse-over to items? I don’t know the items by name and I’m pretty sure most don’t know either. It’s very annoying to have to copy/paste the names to wowhead.

    …and while I’m posting something I’d like to add: Thanks for the website and posting the articles, VERY helpful


    • Absolutely not. No helpful mouseover links. I am elitist and believe that you should know all trinkets by heart!

      (Heh. No worries’ I’ll get them in tonight while we have some raid downtime.)


  4. Grookshank

    What I like so much about your blog is – besides your style is always a very good read – that you have a fantastic timing in writing about our current hot issues. Really appreciate that.

    About your trinket values: Is the CD of 60 sec realistic for the Fall of Mortality? I know the ICD is said to be 60 sec, but since it only has a chance to proc from a spell, I calculated myself with 75sec – which would lead to 233 proc MP5 compared to your value of 262 proc MP5.


    • Agreed–the mp5 numbers will be slightly less than represented because you will need to account for the fact that the trinket has a chance to proc after the ICD expires. I didn’t include this buffer in the calculation because I felt it would complicate things, so I just stuck with the “best case” scenario for all trinkets.


      • Phoenix

        I believe the icd for Fall of Mortality is 75 seconds. Unless you are looking at it from when the buff dissipates until it can proc again. I have also noticed Fall of Mortality proccing off hots/healing rain ticks today which is behavior contrary to my testings when I first received it. Perhaps I was unlucky or perhaps it was changed.


  5. Grookshank

    Sorry for the double post, but maybe it would be correct to adjust the value of the Vibrant Alchemist Stone, since you can reforge 40% of its haste to spirit, which would lead to something like =M19+(H19*0.4)*($H$5-$H$7).


  6. Blindlad

    Since we’re on the subject of discussing procs right now I would like to ask your opinion on a question that is bugging me quite a lot now.

    Heartsong or Power Torrent? I know that those equate to approximately 108 spirit and 120 intellect, however I am torn between what is better. Heartsong will no longer boost our manatide after 4.0.6, but the random sporadic effects of power surge is a disadvantage too. What is your take on this, especially with your experience in hardmodes (disregarding cost)?

    I’m grabbing the tier2 pvp mace this Wednesday, and am open to test both if needed.


    • I think the argument for Power Torrent has always been strong. The randomness of the proc doesn’t concern me that much because there are very few moments where I would not benefit from the extra regen (through the mp5 spirit regen calc) or from the extra spellpower. If it’s a transition, I should be casting LB, in which case the extra oomph means more mana return. If I’m in the midst of combat, that extra SP means all of my spells will be hitting that much harder.

      And, if the stars align (or if I set up a PowerAura to warn me) and I drop MT along with a PT proc, I’ll get a little extra mana for my efforts.


  7. Alacran

    It would be nice if they made Mandala of Stirring Patterns proc with ANY spells so we hybrids could use them for dps offspec too.


  8. Quasigeddon

    It looks like you’re miscalculating the mp5 effect of the corrupted egg shell in your spreadsheet.

    I’m seeing the calculation as (475*3) / 120
    475*3 = total mana back over 2 minutes but you forgot to multiply by 5 for the MP5 value.

    It’s still far from amazing but if you factor in the absorb effect it may actually be close to the other 5-man heroic trinkets.


    • Actually, it’s a deliberate miscalculation. As mentioned in the notes (which are below the trinket table) the duration of the Egg’s shell is calculated for approx 15 seconds of uptime. This was, on most heroic encounters, the average duration that I could get on the shell. Now, while your mileage may vary, given that the shield strength is equivalent to one hit from any mob out there, I didn’t feel it was a fair representation to say that you could get the full 30sec duration. Hence, the very low performance value.


      • Quasigeddon

        Sorry, I wasn’t really clear what I was correcting.

        You have the mp5 value listed as:
        475 * 3 = 1425 mana back
        1425 / 120 = 11.875

        11.875 is the mana per second, not mp5 of the effect.


      • Teekah

        Regarding the shell, i find that i get absolutely most of this trinket by placing it on myself, rarely less than max duration this way. I find your calculations very interesting, however, sinec you calculate the proc trinkets so close to tthe “on-use” trinkets does that mean that blizzard has left their stated design of making on-use trinkets a great deal more pwerful since they assume lower downtime and to commend “less automated” gameplay?


  9. Vexa

    Hi Vixsin,

    Another great post to get me through a slow Monday!

    With reagrds to “just macro in /use 13 or /use 14 into your most-used spell” may I suggest a slight tweak to that.

    When I macro in ‘on use’ trinkets I tend to only allow them to work in combat e.g /use [combat] 14. I don’t know if you are like me but I tend to throw out heals on people before we start fights, either to recover lost health from buffs or just to get sme HoTs rolling. This ensures that the first time you use your trinket would be at the very start of the fight, maximising it effectiveness.


    • Good clarification, and definitely a good idea. Generally speaking, on my shaman I don’t pre-hot so I don’t run into the early trigger situation that often. However on my druid, I use an all-in-one trinket + focus switch + refresh macro for my primary LB target (which is similar to the one I use for ES), but have a second bind for pure LB, which is what I use when I need to LB the world. Having the two separate means that I don’t worry about popping my trinket while pre-hotting and means that keeping LB stacked on the tank is a 1-button job!


  10. Boreall

    I was curious as why you left out JoAR? It does lack throughput, but from my testing the mana regen is amazing,


    • JoAR was not excluded from the spreadsheet–it’s in there. You’re absolutely correct that it’s not included, mentioned or even suggested in my list of winners. Here’s why:

      1. The +Spirit will not be used in the MT calculation (as far as I could tell on PTR). So, you’re not even getting the same bonus that you would from Mandala.
      2. It is pure regen–nothing else. You are skipping out on a potential 321-363 Intellect–that’s 5136 – 5805 total mana and *5%* spellpower for a gain of … 180 mp5. Cast 7 LBs during a 6-minute encounter and you’ll get the same regen you would from JoAR.

      Remember: Int benefits your mana pool (and thus your gain from replenishment), the amount of mp5 you get from spirit, your mana return from MT, your crit, the amount of mana you gain from TC, and your spellpower, thus affecting your throughput. Whereas a temporary spirit buff benefits *only* your regen, nothing else. Does that sound like a fair trade?


  11. [...] Mana Tide change.  Another great Shaman blogger, Vixsin, has tackled this one too with a nice math-laden analysis of our various trinket options.  His general opinion on Core of Ripeness, which I agree with, is [...]


  12. [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Pewter, Ari. Ari said: Trinkets, Procs and Math, Oh My! : http://lifeingroup5.com/?p=1886 – I enjoyed this read.. [...]


  13. Thomas

    Great post. Thoughts on using Darkmoon Card: Blue Dragon again? Anecdotal evidence seems pretty strong for its usefulness, and I’m thinking that it may not have the “temporary spirit” limitation that other procs will have with the new MTT?


    • I actually had a really good conversation with Chandali of Kil’jaeden about this very same question; he was kind enough to do some testing for me and ultimately came to a similar conclusion–it’s not worth the loss of stats. Here’s the long explanation from my original email to him (my stats have increased since then but the relative value would be similar):

      Looking at my current stats, I’m sitting at 2656 in combat regen, with 3788 out of combat. This means that when procced, the card would give me an additional 1134 regen per 5 seconds, netting me a 3402 gain over 15 seconds. The card does not have an internal CD, but rather a 2% chance to proc on every spell. So, this would mean that out of 100 casts, it would proc an average of 2 times. Given an average cast time of 2seconds per cast, if I was to chain-cast those 100 spells, it would equate to 2 procs over 200 seconds (100 casts x 2sec each) , or 1 proc every 100 seconds. So, I would be getting 3402 mana over 100 seconds, which would equate to 170 mp5 (about equal to Glyph of Water Shield).


      • That doesn’t take into account its multiplicativeness with spirit procs including mana tide though. It doubles the value of any +spirit effect for its duration. To accurately calculate how good DMC: BD is, you’d have to figure out your average in- and out-of-combat regen including mana tide and your spirit trinkets used on cooldown.

        The proc chance of BD is low enough that you probably wouldn’t be able to count on using it that way, but the chance that it could proc at the same time as, say, your second use of Core of Ripeness for a fight, should increase its average regen value by a little bit.


        • I think you have a valid point about the timing of BD with MT, provided that BD takes your MT-affected Spirit value into its calculation. Theoretically, if you could align MT drops with BD then you would stand to gain over using another trinket.

          However, what has been observed by multiple testers, as you so rightly pointed out, is that it is incredibly difficult to align MT drops with BD procs. Outside of the first proc, it’s very unlikely that you would be able to sufficiently align MT, BD with the mana levels of your healing teammates. Given that the greatest benefit from MT when you drop it early and often–aligning procs be “optimal” on paper, but in reality I’ve found that MT is not something you have the luxury of holding off on dropping.

          So, you’re right in that it’s not a worthless trinket, but when compared to the SP gain and regen offered by some of the options in this tier, in my opinion, it isn’t a viable option.


  14. Hazai

    Thank you for the great post. Just one question, would it be appropriate to include the extra mana gains from the +40% potion effect off the Vibrant Alchemist Stone? With the potion of concentration it would be an extra 8800 mana from it.


    • Looks like I was accounting for the 8800 mana incorrectly on the Alchemist’s Stone. The potential value has been updated above and on the spreadsheet. (Bear in mind that the mp5 value of 8800 mana gets progressively lower the longer a fight is, thus making the value of the trinket depreciate as time increases).


  15. hi,
    thank you for the commpendium of trinkets, i’ve been searching for this for weeks but could not find something.
    unfortunately i soled my Tsunami-Card (Quest-Item) a few days ago cause i thought it would be the same thing as my Core of Ripeness, but i forgott the different CD. (damn!)
    i think i will wait for Fall of Mortality and hope that Blizzard will change the Mandala-Trinket as pronounced. Along the way I’ll farm Tyrande’s Doll…i try to.

    btw i want to say that i really like your site. since i come to know your blog i read every single post and comment and always look forward for the next one. Every time i have to rack my brain over a problem with my resto-shaman you really hit the point with you posts or it takes no time that you discuss my current issue. Even the comments in the EJ-forum discuss our problems not so detailed like you do.


  16. Ebby

    Possibly a beginner’s question, but here goes. In order to calculate the average effect of a proc, you need to know the CD. How do you know this for items that proc randomly e.g. Fall of Mortality? Is there a universal CD I’m not aware of or does it differ across random-proc trinkets?


    • Luckily, I have a very knowledgeable guildie who advised me that:

      For on-use trinkets: ICD = proc duration x 6
      For on-euip trinkets: ICD = proc duration x 5

      Much more reliable than testing through spellcasting, since the proc chance and spell duration will ultimately skew your results heavily.


  17. Malefícent

    Ebby,

    It does differ for trinkets, in that some have higher or lower CD’s than others. The easiest way of calculating it is for someone to go somewhere and cast till it procs and then keep doing this to get a sample of data to then look at and then anaylse it to see the timestamp difference between each proc.

    If several people do this and they all come to the same time difference proc wise then you can pretty much take that as given for that trinket.

    Mal.


  18. Patrick

    I’m confused about a few things in your spreadsheet. First off, when you look at converting Spirit into Mp5, shouldn’t you be converting static Spirit at a different rate than proc Spirit due to the Mana-Tide change? The formulas don’t seem to be consistent. Why is the static value from Rainsong larger than from Mandala? Are you accounting for Mana Tide in your static Spirit calculations? Because it seems like you’re covering Spirit to Mp5 at the same rate for procs and static Spirit (compare the Mandala and Core). I’d think that Static Spirit should be worth around 40% more than a proc of the same average value to just you, and even more if you take into account other healers.

    As a second issue, I don’t think you can assign the full weight to Intellect for an Intellect proc such as the new Mandala. You don’t gain the initial mana from that intellect, so you’re losing a significant percentage of the benefit.


    • To hopefully clear a couple things up:

      1. Static spirit is valued based on the spirit weighting assigned in the “Stat Weight” values at the top of the spreadsheet. Per the notes, Spirit as a proc is weighted the same as mp5, since it will provide no additional benefit. This was expressly done because of the 4.0.6 changes.
      2. The gain from Mana Tide was not accounted for in the mp5 calculation of Spirit, but given that the stat weight is greater for static spirit versus proc spirit, the ultimate valuation should retain the appropriate proportion.
      3. A calculation error was representing the mp5 value of Rainsong and Sea Star as the total OOC gain instead of IC–good catch. It’s been updated.
      4. Maybe I should have been clearer on this point, but the mp5 values in the spreadsheet are not presented to be the actuals that you get in combat because they don’t take proc rates, casts per second, downtime, etc. into effect. YMMV. But what I was trying to do was provide a basis for comparison between the options out there, based on consistent logic and reasonableness.

      As to the Int proc on Mandala, I think you have a valid question about whether or not it can be evaluated at the full value of Int as you would any other static value, but I’m not sure I understand your point about it not affecting your initial mana. It wouldn’t benefit from Kings/Mark, but provided that you do have replenishment during that time, the nominal mp5 gain is still valid, and provided that you are healing, the spellpower gain is valid as well. Any suggestions on the valuation?


      • Elatari

        I believe you currently have Mandala – would it be possible to test it in the following manner:

        Do an encounter with no trinket in that slot, and then the same encounter with the trinket equipped, and compare performance. A boss in a non-heroic instance should provide a long enough time frame for at least some judgments to be made, without there actually being stress that something could go wrong. Also, it would allow you to kill an early boss, walk out of the instance, and reset it, so you can get the tests done quickly. Trying to do it on heroics would be subject to lock out, as well as “something could conceivably go wrong here.”

        Perhaps we can devise some sort of statistic in regards to “worth over nothing equipped.”


      • Patrick

        Thanks for the reply, that does help clear things up a bit. I probably would convert the Shaman’s own Spirit (both static and proc) into a mp5 number. You really shouldn’t be able to set a different value for Spirit and Mp5 since they are mechanically tied together. That said, the real wildcard is how much you value the mp5 you give other healers via your static Spirit.

        As for intellect, you identify a number of benefits from intellect: spellpower, crit, initial mana, regen (via replen, spirit regen, and hymn of hope?). Some significant portion of this value is tied to the fact that more intellect gives you more mana to start the fight. If you have an intellect proc, you never get that extra mana. These are rough numbers, but if a point of Int gives you 15 mana and 0.09 mp5, then as long as the fight is under 14 minutes, the majority of the mana from intellect comes from the initial mana. For instance, I use Synapse Springs, but to benefit from the initial mana I have to use the springs before the pull and drink up, then I have to use the 7200 mana in the few seconds before the buff falls off. That’s fine for a use +int effect, but not for a proc. Also there are many fights where you are able to fill your mana bar halfway through the fight and then burn it down later. Having a higher max mana is a huge asset in these fights.

        Modeling that breakdown seems a bit complex, but it’s probably doable. You can assume a fight length, and then subtract the lost mana from the value of intellect for the proc. For instance if you have 100 intellect average from a proc, that’s worth 160 (assuming 1.6 per static int) minus 15.6 in an 8 minute fight (1.0 per mp5 times 1500 mana / 480 seconds * 5). That’s certainly a lower bound on the effect, because if you do fill your mana bar mid-fight, then having a higher max mana provides even more benefit.

        I haven’t done all the calculations yet, but I’m pretty sure I’ll be using the new Alchemist Stone and the Mandala. I couldn’t imagine picking a trinket with a lot of value tied to regen that doesn’t benefit the raid through Mana Tide. If you need more regen I think it’s best to increase your static Spirit so the other healers benefit as well.


  19. Zafira

    So looking at 4.06 numbers as going thru as blizz has advertised so far, and my total fail with spreadsheets, my options for trinkets are Tyrande’s, Vibrant, and Mandala….I’m gut instinct aiming to pair Mandala with the Alch stone reforged for spirit-since looking at my Guild’d WOL reports our fights are averaging 5.5-6.5 minutes. Am I going to be shorting myself with that pairing. Did I make a mistake passing on FoM last night? I’m aiming for long term picture not every upgrade at this second. BTW was that spreadsheet worst case on the post-patch mandala accounting for the short term replenishment gains? (as I mentioned I’m not mathematically minded :P )

    Also, I’m personally anticipating swapping to power torrent when I get an Epic considering how much static spirit we’ll be focusing on. Thinking that between the Mandala proc I’ll have a decent uptime of an inflated int pool for replen purposes.

    I’ve only just swapped to my resto a month ago and my guild is 11/12 working on Nef, 25 man….so my deep knowledge is still limited.

    If this was the wrong way to pose such a compilation of questions, sorry! And I LOVE your site its a great resource!


  20. Anon

    A recent post on EJ showed that Jar of Ancient Remedy was affected by mana tide on PTR. The person did not have a Tsunami card nor mentioned 4pc to test with. If anyone here has the ability to test those it would be appreciated. Thanks!


  21. Meryniver

    Other comments on EJ now provide more information: Jar and DMC:Tsunami are both affected by MTT on PTR, 4pc is not. I have no confirmation, it’s just what I’ve found on EJ myself.


  22. Patrick

    Based on both trinkets working with MTT, I’ll be using Heroic Jar and DMC. That’s 980 Spirit from your two trinkets. Also the Jar lets you pass the mana to someone else which greatly increases it’s value. Assuming you stack Spirit, mana will be a lot more valuable in the hands of any other healer.


    • Suleria

      This effect is actually pretty huge. Large enough that Dark Moon Card and 372 Jar probably are your BIS trinkets. 1 Spirit that is use-able by Mana Tide is worth approximately .373 spirit (16.8*4/180) to each healer effected, on top of your personal spirit. In a 6 healer group, this adds up to something like 3.23 spirit in a 6 healer group.

      This would make jar worth about 1524 spirit (excluding the proc) and dark moon card worth about 1292 Spirit, blowing away the rest of the field. (again assuming 6 healers)


  23. NIhune

    Hello again Vixsin!

    Great post as usual but I got talking with a guildie last night and we had a question that I’d be curious if you or anyone on this thread would know about.

    You mention the top trinkets as this:
    * Fall of Mortaility (Heroic) – 363 Int/SP + ~262 Mp5
    * Fall of Mortality (Normal) – 321 Int/SP + ~266 Mp5
    * Tyrande’s Favorite Doll – 321 Int/SP + ~378 Mp5
    * Darkmoon Card: Tsunami – 321 Int/SP + ~271 Mp5

    Back in ToC you could stack normal and heroic modes of the same trinket, (Solace of the Fallen – Heroic http://www.wowhead.com/item=47432, and Solace of the Fallen – Normal http://www.wowhead.com/item=47271) however in ICC you could not.

    Any idea if BOTH of the Fall of Mortality trinkets can be equipped at the same time?


    • I’m sorry to report that trinket stacking doesn’t look like it’s going to be an option. Testing last night on live, I was unable to equip Heroic (ilvl372) JoAR while also wearing the normal (ilvl359) version. So, it looks like we won’t find ourselves in a Double Solace situation any time soon.


  24. Kip

    How have you calculated that the static MP5 of 321 int as 28.89? Just from the enhanced effect of spirit I calculate it to be around 40 from the base values in the spreadsheet (5246 int and 2208 spirit).

    (0.001 + 2208 * sqrt(5246) * 0.003345) * 5 * 0.5 = 1337.4 MP5

    (0.001 + 2208 * sqrt(5246 + 321) * 0.003345) * 5 * 0.5 = 1377.6 MP5

    1377.6 – 1337.4 = 40.2 MP5


    • As I mentioned in the post, the mp5 values weren’t intended to be exact. But, for the purposes of comparison, I utilized a dumbed-down conversion to get an estimate–a ratio of 1 Int: 0.09mp5 (based on replenishment and a 1:1 Int/Spirit comparison in the regen formula). As you aptly pointed out, this does short the conversion resulting in a lower mp5 calculation per Int.

      A more precise way would have been to use the comparison you illustrated (although do note that 321 Int from a trinket becomes 337.05 Int based on Mail Specialization, for the purposes of the regen formula) and then apply a factor against the replenishment gain from the Int (since replenishment rarely has 100% uptime on each and every raid member) to get a final mp5 estimate.

      But, rather than set about creating a perfect model (which would also require me to assign factors to trinket uptime, MT timing, etc.) I settled for something a little more rough, that at least allowed to me look at things from a level playing field.


  25. Gasty

    Hallo,now i m really confused,should i change my http://www.wowhead.com/item=59354 for http://www.wowhead.com/spell=96254 ? i m using also http://www.wowhead.com/item=58184 .
    Now i now that mTT doesnt stack with both of them.Playing for Resto shaman..thank you m8s


  26. Su

    Anyone had a chance to test the Mandala trinket? I ground out my rep pre patch and bought it at the patch but have only been able to raid with it once. The huge loss in my mana pool really hurts and I honestly didnt feel it was great for regen. I only had a chance to use it on 10 reg chimaeron on an off night for 25man. So perhaps the fight mechanics for healers affected the proc? It may do better in 25 than 10?

    Normally I slot Tyrande’s with Core. The healing team was running dry on mana so I tweaked my gear around a little to boost my spirit including the Mandala trinket, hoping the almost 500 more spirit I had would help the druid and pally with MTT. But for my personal regen I felt it was really lackluster. Having a larger mana pool occasionally with the proc doesnt mean anything if you are still oom. Perhaps it was the wrong fight to hope to see as much benefit. Cant afford tsunami and my time to herb is limited as well as pretty unlucky procs with my inscriptionist in making the right cards.

    Just wondering if others have had a chance to test it and whether it is a very situational trinket for fights to benefit the other healers moreso than me.


    • Su

      I am also an alchemist so will have the new stone as an option as well. It looks pretty tasty compared to Core as a second BiS for me. FoM isn’t an option yet.


  27. Malefícent

    I have changed my Core for the alch trinket…..this gives me more Int and also Haste…..which means I can focus other gear away from haste and the +40% Pot bonus is useful also. it does return slightly less regen than core, but because of the above is a much better piece FOR ME….might not be the case for others.

    I have not tried the mandala, however I do not think that its really a viable option, so you get an extra 321 spirit…you lose 321 int, this means that you can give others an extra 1,284 spirit than normal when you pop MTT….which is really nothing in the grand scheme of things. Not worth your own personal reduced output in my opinion.

    But some people may find the need….it all depends on your own set of gear, i think I currently have 2120 Spirit atm and dont really find the need for more, therefore this trinket is not ideal for me.

    M.

    PS. I run with Tsunami….now thats a sexy trinket as it stacks with MTT and gives Int = win/win


  28. Su

    Without mandala I hover around 2k spirit, with slightly less on my mastery focused set. I have two sets, one more mastery focused and one more crit/haste focused. Was trying to see the healing differences between them as well as if the fight would be more optimal (mastery on chimaeron). In 25 I am not seeing mastery playing quite as much a role in heal quality due to the effectivity of our healing team. My gear selection is still quite a few 346 blues so I expect some of the challenge to ease up as I gain more gear.

    Buying second t11 set piece today and going to fiddle more with my gear mix. Just would like to try and pin down the trinkets if possible. Tyrandes has been great, even with the annoying aoe effect. I have been heavily eyeing using the alch trinket over core now that we have it available, just was curious if there were any rants/raves to be had for mandala.


  29. Zafira

    As for Trinket pairing, Post-4.06 if you are actually using your MTT in a fight…..Mandala is pretty crazy- yielding i think 1284 spirit alone to your other healers. If None of your healers ever go OOM except at the end of a fight….I really don’t see a reason NOT to use it until you get a DMC/JoAR Combo. Til Next Tier…..it seems to me that this will be the ideal set if you are even partially focused on providing a decent mana tide buff. Personally, I didn’t jump on the Jar when it dropped just because it was unaware of the effects working in conjunction with MTT spirit numbers…and lo and behold has refused to drop since. So, currently I’m rolling Tsunami and Mandala and am pretty satisfied with that combo as the tsu supports my mana pool and the mandala will be replaced when that stinker of a trinket drops for me. With the Announcement of the 15% additional to purification today, I am even happier that these two are such a good pair that I don’t have to use a non-spirit trinket because my throughput isn’t as strong as it would be with a Tyrande’s or Vibrant Stone.


  30. hi,

    yesterday night i was very amazed by one fact. I dropped my Mana Tide Totem during the Int-procc of Mandala of Stirring Patterns was active and i restored about 70% of my mana. It looks like the Int Buff counts the whole time when MTT is active, even if the int-procc expires.
    I’m not sure if this is true but did Blizzard really forgot this combination? I’m not good in theorycraft so i would be glad if someone could verify this.


  31. [...] though it's technically a shaman based blog, I did find a recent post by Vixsin over @ Life In Group 5 and she created a number of really excellent spreadsheets that breakdown [...]


 
 



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