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July 27, 2012

MoP’s Solutions for the Problems of T13

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Written by: Vixsin
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It’s been over eight months since Dragon Soul opened its doors in the Caverns of Time, seven months since a Korean guild burst onto the world stage with the first kill of HM Madness of Deathwing, and six months since the power of those final 8 bosses started to decline. For some raiders it may feel like we’ve spent an eternity in the discordant environment of Tier 13, while others have only recently earned their place as Saviors of Azeroth. But regardless of the path that you’ve taken through the final raiding content of the expansion, there have been some valuable lessons learned along the way.

Today I wanted to talk about some of my own take-aways from Dragon Soul, focusing on some of the things that affected me as a progression raider, specifically: LFR abuse and bans, legendaries, healing compositions, and class stacking. But more importantly, I want to discuss how these issues in Dragon Soul laid some of the groundwork for the changes we’ll see in Mists of Pandaria (which is set to be released oh so soon!)

 

LFR Abuse and Bans

A black mark on LFR’s implementation, the loot abuse that occurred at the start of Tier 13 and which garnered bans in a number of the top guilds will, I think, be the most memorable thing for hard mode raiders this tier. Whereas EU, TW, and KR guilds typically dominate the top world ranks, Tier 13 saw a number of these guilds endure week-long bans that underscored just how much of an impact one lockout can have on overall progression. The world’s most-recognized raiding guild, Paragon, finished World #5; US-based powerhouse Vodka saw themselves slip to World #11, while Blood Legion clawed its way to World #4; and Taiwan super-guild STARS managed to pull off what many others couldn’t and come back from a World #29 Blackhorn kill to finish World #2.

To me, what was more disappointing than seeing a number of the top guilds succumb to the pressure of “winning at any cost” were two things: a) the shock of the community at the fact that there had been exploits, and more importantly, b) that the exploits seemingly caught Blizzard by surprise. Maybe it’s my cynical nature or the fact that my athletic experience made me intimately familiar with the “win at any cost” mentality, but after 7 years of watching top guilds find any and every crack in boss encounters—using world buffs, kiting Freya’s flowers, evade-bugging adds, saronite bombing platforms, chaining Holy Wrath stuns, stacking rip-spamming druids, etc.—not expecting players to utilize a loot system that they can control to its fullest, seems painfully myopic.

Even now, long after the bans, Raid Finder is still rife with players gaming the system, rolling on gear that they don’t need/want so that they can trade it to friends or guildies, or simply give it to someone they deem “worthy”. And, although Vigil didn’t elect to farm LFR the acceptable way, there were plenty of guilds who ran LFR multiple times in those first weeks, funneling gear to a few players. (Actually, I designed such a plan for Pie Chart, which made it possible for them to do multiple runs with no more than 3 loot-eligible players per run and no more than 1 gear type—plate, mail, leather, cloth—in the group. Yeah, Excel is a wonderful thing). So, with LFR, what was envisioned and implemented as a low-commitment way to provide entry-level loot, did not wind up being the boon to casual raiders and undergeared players that it was intended to be.

But, the good news is that all this is slated to change come Mists of Pandaria. While LFR will remain functionally how it is now, as a response to the player-influenced loot of Tier 13 LFR, the loot system in MoP’s Raid Finder is being shifted from a Need/Greed/Pas s system to individual loot rolls. As explained in a recent Blue Post, loot rolls will be done on an individual basis, which means that your roll will never be compared against those in your raid, but rather a scale system where a roll of 5 or lower will net you a piece of loot from the boss’s loot table. Further, items won in LFR will not be tradeable between eligible raid members (unlike drops in NM and HM raids). And, with your character only being eligible for loot once a week for each LFR boss, this means that players will not be able to go in and game the system for their friends and guildmates by reducing the pool of players rolling on loot. And although I’m sure it’s not going to make my luck improve when it comes to drops, this switch will remove the possibility of abuse and put some of the RNG back into gearing.

 

Impact of Legendaries

Anyone talking about Tier 13 would be remiss to not mention the incredible and ridiconkulous impact that legendaries had on progression raid teams in Dragon Soul, and I’m certainly no exception. Instead of the situation you had with Val’anyr in Tier 8, where 1 – 2 players on your raid team had the benefit of the legendary as your guild went into Tier 9; or as with Shadowmourne when the first legendary was assembled during the final LK push; or as with Wairglaives, which were an entirely random drop; in Tier 13, entire ranged dps rosters were outfitted with oranges prior to the launch of 4.3. Made possible by alt raid schedules and rigorously-designed timetables as well as a guaranteed drop rate, the prevalence of Dragonwraths mitigated a number of the dps checks that were put in place for DS encounters.

If there’s anything I came away with as a result of this tier, it is a distinct loathing for orange-colored items, and their propensity for disrupting balance. Thankfully, it seems that developers were in agreement regarding the implementation of Dragonwrath and, back in September 2011, prior to the release of Dragon Soul, agreed that the parallelization model wasn’t something that we’d see making a resurgence. In contrast to Dragonwrath, the rogue legendaries that went into place in DS almost felt like an afterthought to the PVE experience. When Vigil’s fourth and final rogue finished his Aspects daggers in June, it felt more like a consolation prize and less like a legendary accomplishment.

As to what the future holds, in Ghostcrawler’s Cataclysm Post Mortem, he gave some hints about what shape the coming legendaries might take:

Legendaries are supposed to be rare and exciting, not a bar you fill up like some reputation grind, and certainly not something you feel entitled to get because it’s “your turn.” Dragonwrath in particular was usable by a large variety of class specs, which coupled with the guarantee to completion, just made them too ubiquitous. In the future, legendaries will be more legendary, perhaps so much so that not every raiding guild will have one. In that model, there might be those who almost, but not quite, complete one, but there will also be those who finish one and feel truly honored. (Source)

The unfortunate thing is that this picture doesn’t hold up so much in light of the information that has been discovered thus far about Legendaries in Mists. Although it’s not yet been confirmed by any Blizzard source, data mining has revealed Legendary enchants which conceivably can be applied to any weapon in game. Although the path for achieving the legendary and the associated timeline are purely speculation at this point, the format represents a definite departure from class-restricted legendaries of the past. However, I see the same problem with the Legendary Questline as I do with Dragonwrath farming—it encourages guilds who want a legendary edge to continue operating multiple alt raids to ensure more chances at the drop. On the flip side, a return to a random, low-percentage drop rate will put both 10-man and 25-man raids back on the same footing, and if tuned appropriately, could mean that legendary items return to being a rarity and not an everyday event.

But, until we see final confirmation from Blizzard how the Legendary Questline will be put into place, (info that might be forthcoming in the weeks ahead) I’m going to consider this Tier 13 problem unresolved.

 

Normalized Number of Healers

With specific regard to 25s, one of the oft-spoken complaints about Tier 12 and Firelands, which seemed to evaporate rather quickly upon the launch of Dragon Soul, was that a number of the hard modes required a very small, very specialized, healing team. In Firelands, you had HM Baleroc: 3-4 healers, HM Domo: 3-4 again, and in HM Rag, where 4 was an absolute maximum until the HP nerfs. This was in stark contrast with T11, where the least amount of healers was likely for Sinestra (we used 4). So, it was delightful when DS hard modes threw these raid comps out the window, and required teams to run with ~6 healers for most encounters, with Ultraxion HM requiring 4-5.

So that was a good thing, right? Well, kinda …I think the lesson from Tier 13 is that in order to set healer “requirements” for a fight, you need to introduce raid damage that stresses the limits of healers’ mana. If you look at the fights in Firelands, you simply didn’t see the same amount of consistent raid damage that you had in Dragon Soul, and so you could get away with less healers. HM Rag sealed the deal with the failed phase 4 mechanic Breadth of Frost, thus enabling 25-man raids to drop down to 3 healers because of the lowered healing requirements.  As a result, DS needed to up the ante, and it did so, with incoming damage that almost doubled what we saw in Firelands. But along with the increase in damage, we saw Blizzard introduce even more buffers, including extending personal tank CDs (eg: Vampiric Blood and Frenzied Regen) to the entire raid.

Making the transition into Mists, we see this delicate problem being addressed in two ways (and I say delicate, because stressing healers’ mana pools when they’re adjusting to new regen mechanics and constraints could easily wind up with one class way behind the pack). First, we’re seeing the migration of raid cooldowns away from tanks.  Prot paladins will no longer have Divine Sacrifice with which to mitigate raid damage, leaving raids with only Rallying Cry, Anti-Magic Zone (which is hypothetically limited in its absorb), and Meditation (which is, as of the last build, limited to a redirection of 5 incoming attacks).

In conjunction with the first point, we’re also seeing hybrids take on more multi-functional qualities in the Beta, allowing them among other things, to actively contribute to raid healing. Druids are likely pointing frantically at Nature’s Vigil and Heart of the Wild, but let’s extend the examples beyond our beloved shapeshifters. For example, while Resto Shaman have been overjoyed to have Tranquility Totem at their disposal, its position as a Tier 75 talent means that Enhance and Elemental Shaman will be able to pick it up as well. (It’s worth noting that it won’t be nearly as powerful, since Resto Shamans’ Purification passive increases Water Totem healing by 50%). Likewise, while disc and holy priests will enjoy Halo, a Tier 90 talent, Shadow Priests will also have access to this raid-wide heal on a 40-second CD. Similarly, Zen Sphere, if selected by Brewmaster Monks, will provide significant benefits to a raid stacked in melee range.

As with all things PVE, it is a delicate balance. DS could get away with high HPS requirements because it was the end of the expansion and healers were flush with mana (some more than others). But, the starting tier of Mists will be a different thing entirely. As I mentioned previously, healers will be dealing with yet another standard-of-life adjustment in the form of reduced Intellect contributions and capped mana pools. As a result, I think we’re poised to see two conditions emerge. First, that healing requirements for each encounter will be tied to the type and quantity of raid CDs required.  And second, I think we could see some slack being picked up by classes who have the ability to contribute to total healing without impacting their overall raid performance.

 

Class Stacking

As the final point in this discussion we get to … class stacking. Neither a new nor a minor problem, Blizzard has had a constant, uphill battle when it comes to the class balancing required to support their “Bring the player, not the class” philosophy. From bringing in a plenthora of Warlocks for Soulstone abuse (remember: there didn’t used to be a limit on the number of resses you could use in a fight) to stacking your Sunwell raid with Resto Shaman, progression raiders have always been quick to take advantage of any imbalance in order to beat their raiding competition to a first kill. Dragon Soul was no exception, especially in light of Dragonwarth’s widespread acquisition.

From the DPS side of things, damage meters from Kin Raiders’ HM Spine kill and Blood Legion’s HM Madness kill go a long way to showing which classes were in high demand for the last two hard mode encounters:

Kin Raiders HM Spine DPS breakdown (for tendons) :

Blood Legion HM Madness DPS breakdown:

 

 

And let’s not forget that from the healing side of things—Resto Shaman found themselves back in demand for those same two last encounters (which left a number of guilds struggling to find alts or retired raiders who were up to the task). Kin Raiders brought 3 Resto Shaman to their Heroic Spine of Deathwing kill; likewise Blood Legion defeated Heroic Madness of Deathwing with 3 Resto Shaman in their raid group. Even if it was a consolation for an expansion of playing the odd man out of healing compositions, it was nonetheless a fairly heavy swing towards favoring a single class.

Since I mentioned that this was not a new problem but rather one that has existed in some way, shape or form since raiding’s inception, you might ask—why bring it up in a post specifically about Dragon Soul versus Mists of Pandaria? Because I think the difference with DS was that you didn’t see extreme class stacking by only the first couple of guilds to best the encounter, but rather by a stream of guilds in the top 50+, all adjusting their rosters and/or bringing in alts, in order to make the healing and dps checks that had been put in place, even subsequent to the nerfs. Guilds that had been quick to debunk myths about the necessity of particular raid comps for Sinestra and HM Rag found themselves bowing to classes’ inherent limitations, ones which could not be overcome by simply “playing better”. (I’m looking at Spirit Link Totem here … the benefit it provided on HM Spine was huge).

Tthe reason I left this point until last is because, of all of the things being shifted around in Mists, this is arguably one of the biggest challenges facing game designers. But, there are flickers of hope for players in the next expansion, some of which I mentioned previously— the reduction of the number of raid buffs, further tuning and refinement of classes, reinforcement of the benefits that “hybrid” classes offer and redistribution of raid CDs.

Ultimately, I think this is a challenge that is entirely dependent on where you set the bar for performance and how you measure acceptable tolerances from that benchmark. Sure, Paragon might find their way to a world first with a dps team comprised exclusively of rogues and warriors, but at what point after that top guild do you draw the line for acceptable raid stacking? And what sort of constraints does that put on encounter designers when you have to think of ways to discourage rosters with the flexibility that comes from multiple alt raids? What steps do you take to make sure you don’t have a repeat of HM Spine? I don’t know the answers, but I’m looking forward to finding them out come September 25th.

 

 






11 Comments


  1. shammypie

    A Good Post Vixsin and well thought out. I think many guilds stack certain classes at some point or another. My guild actually had two resto shamans in our group when we downed spine and then later added a third. We ended up dropping down to just myself recently due to other issues but when we did the effect was immediate. Furthermore before i arrived they only had a elemental shaman that was forced to go resto for the shamans utility. With MOP and a new healing class i immediately thought that monk stacking was going to be huge and probably still will be despite the recent nerf.

    Currently i am scared for MOP since i do not want to lose my spot as the guild’s best healer. With today’s buff in regen i am a little more at ease but leave it to Blizzard to leave things unfinished and only bandaged temporarily. With your last post about Blizzard’s blatant disregard to shaman healing problems i am very concerned about my competitiveness. Granted, I don’t think i will ever really lose my spot nor i bet you will either in your guild; however, if i am doing bad at the meters, then usually a lot of other shamans are doing horrible and a great deal of resto shamans no longer exist.

    Finally my ultimate fear (LOL, i just realized that feeling fear only makes the End Tier Boss more powerful) is that monk’s are our replacements (or druids they can go both ways) as they do quite a lot of what we do AND they are the same tier token as us (thank god for LFR loot changes lol).

    Oh and one last point in concerns to dps, we stack mages and rogues like everyone else right now and are only in the top 500 (or so). So i would think that this problem exist to ALL of HM Raiding not just the best. I would say the line has been drawn at approximately normal mode raiding guilds that can do a couple of bosses on heroic near the end with a bunch of nerfs.


  2. I’m actually very concerned about the new LFR system, for two main reasons.

    One, it creates huge problems for heroic raiding guilds when there’s stuff like the 4t13 bonuses for tanks and spriests which are quite literally required. We had one Conqueror glove and zero Conqueror shoulders drop for eight weeks. My damage on Heroic Spine tendons is halved (I do 93% more damage to tenon without even focusing on reforging to Mastery) without the set bonus and I would have had to sit myself as the GM and raid leader if we weren’t able to get a 4t13 from LFR.

    The tank cooldowns were also mandatory for progressing without the nerf. It is not fair for Blizzard to require these set bonuses and then render us unable to get them. At least with Cataclysm LFR, we could get the bonus with weaker pieces of individual gear. In Mists, we’d just be screwed.

    Then there’s also the stuff like the random trinkets and Madness weapons which were also insanely powerful (but not required). With Cataclysm LFR, it’s a bad situation, but at least we can make groups to make sure we have the LFR version. In Mists…we’re just hosed.

    I’ve spoken more about that here: http://unwaveringsentinel.blogspot.com/2012/07/lfr-looting-in-mists-of-pandaria.html?showComment=1341436116152#c1508639565624428397

    Two, I think people will actually be worse off individually in terms of getting loot, especially past the first few weeks of doing LFR.

    I have an essay on it here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5836093756

    So…yeah. Very concerned about Mists LFR.
    Balkoth´s last post ..It’s Been Quite a Journey (8/8H)


  3. LFR changes are positive for those its aimed at. Perhaps its worth worrying about encounter v class design needing band-aids from set bonuses rather than something not even intended for you.


  4. No, they’re not positive for those they are aimed at, which was the entire point of my second link.

    Specifically, this one: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5836093756

    In the new system, your chances of getting an item are *always* the same or lower, and they get *drastically* lower as time goes on (with the exception of having like 6 rogues in a raid, aka a skewed raid composition).

    The effect of both systems is that in the Cataclysm system, everyone *can* roll need and *can* trade if they wish to do so. In the Mists system, everyone is *forced* to roll need and *cannot* trade if they wish to do so.

    As I said in the link, Blizzard seems to think the users are smart enough to realize the other player doesn’t have a choice in winning items he already has while also being dumb enough to not realize the system is worse for them.

    P.S. And the reality of the situation is that heroic raiding guilds will have to do LFR at a minimum during the first tier of the expansion to compete, and potentially in every other tier. So I am worried about what happens to do, particularly when it screws over not only us but also the intended audience.
    Balkoth´s last post ..It’s Been Quite a Journey (8/8H)


    • Felade

      No, overall the new LFR system is a win for casuals at least, if not everyone.

      What people tend forget is that this new system is actually more likely to INCREASE your chances of getting an item. We like to think in terms of “who else is rolling on loot I need” instead of “what chance is there that my item drops”.

      In the new system, you always have at least a 1 in 25 chance (4%) at getting a drop. That drop is guaranteed to be an item you can theoretically use (although if you already have it or have something better then it is obviously worthless to you).

      In the current system, you have about a 8% chance of your item dropping at all (Spine and Madness are outliers at around 40% chance). Then, depending on your raid comp, your chances at winning the drop can also be drastically low. You could have 9 (11%) or 12 (4%) other folks rolling on your drop. Put that together and the best you can get is 8% chance (if you are the only person in the raid who can use that item, which almost never happens). However, your chance could be as low as .3% if you have a lot of competition.

      Yes, you can currently game the system. But that isn’t fair to the people who LFR was actually designed for – casual and solo players who want to try their hand at raiding. They are not going to have a raid team or lots of buddies to helpt them farm drops. In the new model, they will have an equal chance of getting loot as a full time raider.

      The new system increases your chance of getting a drop from a solo standpoint, and it prevents raiders from gaming the system. Win/win.

      The set bonus issue is a little different. However, the problem isn’t with allowing LFR to drop tier tokens, its that in Dragon Soul, set bonuses were way too important. The RNG issue would have been the same without LFR – some guilds would have gotten lucky and gotten their tanks 4pc the first week in normal modes, and other guilds it might have taken 4-5 weeks to get the same bonus. At least with LFR, you had two chances every week per boss (and sometimes more since LFR drops tier tokens more often). LFR was an overall RNG reducer when it came to getting set bonuses quickly.


      • Why do you bother responding to me if you’re not going to read the information I provided at least twice already?

        “What people tend forget is that this new system is actually more likely to INCREASE your chances of getting an item. We like to think in terms of “who else is rolling on loot I need” instead of “what chance is there that my item drops”.”

        Wrong.

        “Put that together and the best you can get is 8% chance (if you are the only person in the raid who can use that item, which almost never happens). However, your chance could be as low as .3% if you have a lot of competition.”

        Wrong wrong.

        “The new system increases your chance of getting a drop from a solo standpoint, and it prevents raiders from gaming the system. Win/win.”

        Wrong wrong wrong.

        Actually read this: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5836093756

        That’s the third time I’ve linked it, and it goes into the actual math of the drop rates and why the “casuals” will be in the same situation or likely worse off.

        “In the new model, they will have an equal chance of getting loot as a full time raider.”

        They’ve always had an equal chance of getting loot as a full time raider. And the full time raider bringing in friends to try to get himself more rolls by trading *doesn’t decrease the chances of the casual.* Unless you get an incredibly skewed raid composition, of course, but assuming it’s still reasonable (as is usually the case) the chances are the same.

        If you have a casual healer who wants the mace from Deathwing, from his perspective it doesn’t change the odds if all five other healers actually need the mace, all other five healers just roll need to troll him, or are five raiders trying to get someone the mace. Same chance of 1/6.

        And in Cataclysm, it was *possible* for other healers to pass on the mace or trade it to the casual healer. In MoP, those other healers will be effectively *forced* to roll on the mace and cannot trade it. It is possible (though very unlikely) for every other healer to get the mace and the casual healer gets nothing. And the other healers can’t do anything but vendor or DE the weapon.
        Balkoth´s last post ..It’s Been Quite a Journey (8/8H)


  5. Felade

    Typing out “wrong” doesn’t disprove the math, sorry.

    Your reasoning in your linked post is flawed. You’re assuming the only thing you need off the boss is the token.

    I don’t know what you mean by “threshold” but its a 1/25 chance the way I understand the new loot system, no matter what. You have a 1 in 25 chance to get loot, period the end. Now, the loot you get may not be your token you’re after (say, its one of two items the boss drops for you you have a 50% chance that it will be the item you get once you win) but you have a 1/25 chance to get loot. That is an increase from live.

    Referring to your list, #3 is not a significant problem. Sure, you might run into such a person once in a blue moon, but the fact is that unless your group is already very bad it is very hard to intentionally wipe your LFR raid.

    However, the problem of stacking classes, or having a significantly lower chance due to raid composition on live IS a big problem. You can’t assume the raid has anything close to a balanced raid comp. I’ve had groups that were ridiculously imbalanced and my chance of winning loot was miniscule, and groups where I’m the only one of my class. THIS is the big improvement. Even if you chance at loot suddenly became much less (it doesn’t), the new system is a big improvement because it removes the issue of composition affecting your chance at loot. No more “there’s too many people on my token or using my gear, time to drop group” or “hey lets get the raid together and everyone roll on the token that Joe wants so we can game the system and cheat solo queuers out of their loot”. Beyond all the math, this simple change is still worth it.

    You can yell and holler all you like, but the loot system is a big improvement over live. Just because people disagree with you, doesn’t mean they aren’t reading your comments before posting.


  6. “Typing out “wrong” doesn’t disprove the math, sorry.

    I don’t know what you mean by “threshold” but its a 1/25 chance the way I understand the new loot system, no matter what. You have a 1 in 25 chance to get loot, period the end.”

    Except your math is wildly off and you’re incorrect in your conclusions because you don’t understand the new system. To shorten that preceding sentence…

    Wrong.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5911882445?page=10#191

    “It starts at the first player and rolls a number from 1-100. If it rolls <5, you win loot. Then it goes to the next player. The game doesn't care what any individual player rolled, so once under a blue moon it might be possible for all 25 to get loot. (The actual chance might not be 5%, but you get the idea.)"

    That's the threshold. In GC's example, the threshold is 5. In reality, if we continued the Dragon Soul LFR model of four drops per boss, the threshold would be 16. For three items on average, it would be 12. For five items (aka, one in five wins an item), it would be 20.

    "Now, the loot you get may not be your token you’re after (say, its one of two items the boss drops for you you have a 50% chance that it will be the item you get once you win) but you have a 1/25 chance to get loot. That is an increase from live."

    Wrong.

    Wait, let's try again.

    No, it isn't an increase from live. If Vanquisher drops 40% of the time and there are 10 Vanquisher wearers, that's a worst case scenario of a 1/25 chance to get a Vanquisher token. This assumes everyone is a greedy asshole who rolls on everything and never trades. Even a raid with 15 Vanquisher wearers (heavily skewed) would leave you with a 1/37 chance *assuming everyone always rolls need and never trades.*

    In short, for a relatively balanced raid composition, your chance of getting an item in the Mists system and your chance of getting an item in the Cata system where *everyone is a jerk, needs on everything, and never trades* are basically the same.

    In fact, GC even said this specifically:

    "The chance of you walking out of Raid Finder with loot will be about the same as it is today. Our goal isn't to distribute loot faster."

    You will not get more items in MoP than in Cata LFR. If anything, you're very likely to get less. And it gets worse, because…

    "Your reasoning in your linked post is flawed. You’re assuming the only thing you need off the boss is the token."

    I'm assuming you're past the first few weeks and you already have a few items. In the first few weeks, the two systems (assuming everyone is a terrible, greedy, and selfish person in the Cata system) will be about the same. After that point, it gets harder and harder to get the remaining items you need in the Mists system because it is blind. You'll get duplicate items and you can't do anything about it. No passing, no trading, no nothing.

    "Sure, you might run into such a person once in a blue moon, but the fact is that unless your group is already very bad it is very hard to intentionally wipe your LFR raid. "

    You clearly don't read the DnR forums, then.

    1. Pulling trash on Morchok.
    2. Pulling Yor'ashj during trash
    3. Pulling Warlord during trash
    4. Starting Warmaster with people dead
    5. Starting Spine with people dead and killing Corruptions

    That's not even counting stuff like Life-gripping healers into ice walls on Hagara. Plenty of complaints about griefers.

    My point, however, was that the changes do nothing to fix this issue. Not saying the issue has to be fixed, just that the loot changes are irrelevant to that issue.

    " I’ve had groups that were ridiculously imbalanced and my chance of winning loot was miniscule, and groups where I’m the only one of my class. THIS is the big improvement."

    For someone who apparently carefully read my post, you evidently missed the part where I said this exact thing.

    "hey lets get the raid together and everyone roll on the token that Joe wants so we can game the system and cheat solo queuers out of their loot”

    It's only "cheating" someone out of "their" loot if you skewed the raid composition. From the solo queuer's perspective, whether the other 7 Conqueror wearers were rolling to trade it to a single person or rolling for themselves makes no difference. Same 1/8 chance either way.

    Now, having 24 Conqueror's queue together and as the 25th Conq wearer is problematic, but a Vanq or Prot wearer would be ecstatic. And I've never actually seen that happen. Have you?

    Given a reasonably balanced raid composition, there is no difference between a group of 24 people rolling to funnel loot to three people and 24 individuals all rolling for themselves. Same odds for the 25th person either way.

    Completely skewed compositions can cause problems, and that is a benefit of the new system, but I think the costs are far too grievous compared to that benefit.

    "Just because people disagree with you, doesn’t mean they aren’t reading your comments before posting."

    Except you don't understand how the threshold system works and tried to claim I was wrong.

    Except you don't understand the current loot percentages and how to calculate the odds of getting an item (which I explained).

    Except you apparently missed the very point I made about the sole improvement being in terms of raid composition.
    Balkoth´s last post ..It’s Been Quite a Journey (8/8H)


  7. Your assumptions are off, and you seem to think comparing best case to best case is valid when LFR is intended to be pugged and 99% of the time worst case is what you have. But we are not about to convince you, so im not going to try. However just know Blizz, everyone I have talked to, Felade here, and the quiet majority generally think its a great idea.

    If you are going to latch onto a issue and hound it, pick something important and actually worrying.

    -Shaman spread healing band-aids.
    -Devaluation of Int for healers but Spi not being recognized as a primary stat for most prof bonuses.
    -Secondary stats being doubled vs primary stats on gems, and still Spi not being addressed.
    -Combining the last two points to push healers towards JC/BS more heavily than any class/spec/role and profession ever before.
    -Class weaknesses being addressed with glyphs/set bonuses as content requires.
    -Ranged vs Melee DPS imbalance and flexibility.
    -Hybrids off healing ability through talented CDs, and the inevitable DPS tax it will have.
    -Symbiosis being so hit and miss, some combos giving powerful combat ability’s, and others gimmicky out of combat ability’s.
    -The existence of 25man specs such as enhance shaman and DPS/Healing Monks, and their lack of tools/buffs in a 10man setting.
    -Zone wide (de)buffs such as ICC and DS existing on heroic and being un-trackable for progression sites. Also the effect this has on recruitment when everyone is 8/8H.
    -The class imbalance effecting some major fights so heavily. Eg DK tank on madness made it a completely separate fight to those without one on 10man.

    Etc.

    Picking the loot system for a raid mode not even intended for you, then applying your situation on it and pointing out its flaws seems odd.


  8. Felade

    Yep. Clearly Balkoth is beyond listening. I will go on enjoying the game and this fantastic change to LFR on all my alts.


  9. “Your assumptions are off, and you seem to think comparing best case to best case is valid when LFR is intended to be pugged and 99% of the time worst case is what you have.”

    Say what?

    1. No, it isn’t an increase from live. If Vanquisher drops 40% of the time and there are 10 Vanquisher wearers, that’s a worst case scenario of a 1/25 chance to get a Vanquisher token.
    2. This assumes everyone is a greedy asshole who rolls on everything and never trades”
    3. Even a raid with 15 Vanquisher wearers (heavily skewed) would leave you with a 1/37 chance *assuming everyone always rolls need and never trades.*”
    4. In short, for a relatively balanced raid composition, your chance of getting an item in the Mists system and your chance of getting an item in the Cata system where *everyone is a jerk, needs on everything, and never trades* are basically the same.
    5. In the first few weeks, the two systems (assuming everyone is a terrible, greedy, and selfish person in the Cata system) will be about the same

    That’s FIVE separate statements where I refer to worst case scenarios in LFR.

    Unless you’re referring to the forum thread…where my point was that worst case Cata was equivalent to the *only* case in MoP, and the best case Cata was twice as good as the *only* case in MoP.

    And what assumptions are off?

    “However just know Blizz, everyone I have talked to, Felade here, and the quiet majority generally think its a great idea.”

    In addition to my thread, here’s another one where GC responded: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5911882445?page=1

    Plenty of people there criticizing the new system.

    P.S. The quiet majority doesn’t even know what LFR is, something like 30% of the playerbase has used it.

    P.P.S. Of that 30%, only a fraction actually visit forums and know about the upcoming change.

    P.P.P.S. That’s an “argumentum ad populum” ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum ) and a fallacy, thus meaningless by itself. Blizzard thought increasing the honor gained from winning TB by tenfold was a good idea as well.

    “Picking the loot system for a raid mode not even intended for you, then applying your situation on it and pointing out its flaws seems odd.”

    Except the t13 set bonuses were mandatory for 0% progression for tanks and spriests. We had one Conqueror glove and zero Conqueror shoulders for over two months. I would have had to sit myself on Heroic Spine as GM and Raid Leader if we couldn’t guarantee getting my 4t13 from LFR. So that’s pretty damn important.

    “-Class weaknesses being addressed with glyphs/set bonuses as content requires.”

    Oh, hey, what do you know, that’s exactly the issue with LFR. Or rather, the current LFR system allows us to overcome that issue if Blizzard puts us in that position. In Mists, we’ll just be screwed, unless we hire a dozen people to fill out an LFR run or something.

    But yes, many (or all) or those issues you raise are problems. But not being able to be in on the “final” boss of the expansion because I can’t get my four piece is right up there (and tied to one of your points). Cata LFR lets me get around the problem, MoP LFR makes me have to hope Blizzard doesn’t do it again. I don’t like feeling powerless.
    Balkoth´s last post ..It’s Been Quite a Journey (8/8H)



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